Senator the Hon Katy Gallagher

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Finance Minister Katy Gallagher joins me now, she’s also the Minister for Women. Welcome.

SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER, MINISTER FOR FINANCE: Morning – sorry, afternoon.

KARVELAS: Yes, I used to be in the morning so it’s confusing. Look, I just want to start with some new figures that have come today, which is very much in your portfolio, the number of federal public servants has increased by almost 14 per cent since Labor took office. Of course that means higher wages bills as well. You comfortable with this increase?

GALLAGHER: Well, I'm not sure where those statistics came from, but we have employed more public servants, and we've been changing from contractors and labour hire in many areas. But we're also making sure we're resourcing the public service properly. It wasn't resourced properly, and that meant Australians weren't getting the services they relied upon. So I think the public service is roughly the right size now, give or take. It'll move up and down a little bit I imagine, but I think we've got the balance right. But it hasn't just been employing public servants without any benefit. We're seeing improved service outcomes as well for the Australian people.

KARVELAS: Yeah, they're ABS figures, and I get your point, but I suppose it sort of is linked to the broader argument that some economists are making, that the economy perhaps is still too hot, and that's why we've seen the spike in inflation. That there's too much government spending. What's your response to that critique?

GALLAGHER: Well, what we've seen in the last data is that public demand, or investments from governments around the country, is coming down at the time that private investment is coming up. And that's good, that's what we want. But there is a role for government when things are a bit uncertain, when there's areas of need for government to, you know, invest, and we have been doing that. Whether it be in energy bill relief or all of those cost-of-living measures we've talked about over the last three years when inflation was high, the government does have a role to play there to make sure households are looked after and supported.

KARVELAS: You're currently, I’m assuming, working on MYEFO with the Treasurer. MYEFO being like the mid-year budget update that's coming out in December. All those energy rebates are coming off. Given the situation we're in and the sort of very high energy costs, are you revisiting that? What's your view?

GALLAGHER: Well, we tapered them. That was the last decision that we made, was to taper them to have those energy bill rebates come off. And some of the kick up in headline inflation that we saw in the last data release was due to a lot of the state and territory energy bill rebates coming off as well. And we've seen the impact of that. I think my answer will be the same that I give to you on a whole range of matters, which is we always look at the right way, what's the right decision? Not only for the economy but for households as well. This is something that we keep under, you know, careful watch.

KARVELAS: What's your instinct on this? Given households are doing it tough?

GALLAGHER: Well, you know, it's not just through energy bill rebates that we've been trying to provide assistance. It's like our bulk billing measure that's come in on the first of November, like we are looking at every way where we are addressing a need and helping households at the same time, and we'll continue that approach. But we also recognise we've got to keep chipping away at budget repair. You know, we've found $100 billion worth of savings, that's helped, over the last three years. But we've got more work to do to make sure we repair the budget.

KARVELAS: Well that is very much the job of the Finance Minister too, must be so fun for you. Are we going to see more budget repair in the mid-year budget that we're about to see?

GALLAGHER: Well, we've done that every budget or budget update, and we're continuing that approach. I mean, we do have a budget in deficit. We've got a lot of pressures coming at the Budget, so it's not just repairing the Budget, it's also finding room for areas like, you know, health, aged care, disability, defence, all of those areas which are continuing to, you know, place pressure on the Budget.

KARVELAS: Okay, so we can expect next month there will be more savings found?

GALLAGHER: Well, that's my job, it’s before ERC, we've done it in every budget, and we're going to continue that approach.

KARVELAS: I want to talk to you about the Senate shenanigans. Has the Government lost control of the Senate? I know you don't have the numbers, and that's going to be your first answer, but it seems that you are consistently being rolled on bills. There's another bill that's, the defence honours, which basically got stopped that you wanted debated. What's going on?

GALLAGHER: Well, I wouldn't share that view. I think it's testy in the Senate at the moment. It's a minority chamber, so a lot of how the Senate conducts this business is done by consensus and cooperation, and there's been a straining of that in the last fortnight. But I would also say, I think we've got 11 bills through. All the bills we wanted to get through, we have got through. The Bill you just referred to, which we did have a bit of shenanigans over before Question Time, that hasn't been discharged from the notice paper, so that remains there. And you know, we'll work with others. I mean, you know, in the Senate, even to sit you have to have agreement of the Senate. So, from the minute the day opens to the minute it closes, everything can be contested. Normally, it runs pretty smoothly, but that has been tested over-

KARVELAS: Why has it been tested? Because some of your – the Opposition, the Greens – have said that it's because the Government is too secretive, you're not transparent, and that this is a culture that's seeped in and that's what they're trying to fix.

GALLAGHER: Yeah, and I don't agree with that. And in fact, you know, we had a bit of to and fro over the Briggs Report, as it's known, and not releasing that. I did a briefing in camera for the Finance and Public Admin Committee this morning to provide them with as much information as I could on that. So, I think we're trying within, you know, I guess all the conventions, including cabinet confidentiality, to work together in the Senate. You know, that's the approach the Government brings. But, you know, it's open to individual senators to test that, and we have been seeing that.

KARVELAS: Have you reached out to the Greens leader, the Coalition, to try and mend relationships, given it seems to have gone off the rails?

GALLAGHER: Well I think for a large part the relationships are very good. As I say, every single thing that happens in the Senate, potentially, is contested. We've got through 11 bills, including a new CDC, Priya’s Bill was passed this week, the State Sponsored Terrorism Bill was passed this morning. So, we're getting through the work. But on the fringes there is tension. And I mean, I work very closely with the managers in both parties and any crossbenchers that wants to work with us. I think a lot of what the public doesn't see is a lot of discussion that happens outside of the chamber, and we'll continue to do that and continue to seek reason and rationality in the Senate.

KARVELAS: Who are you going to get a deal with on the environment laws in the last sitting week the of year?

GALLAGHER: Well, there's two pathways. Murray’s made that clear.

KARVELAS: Which one do you prefer?

GALLAGHER: Look, he's engaging with both, you know, and we'll continue that. We'd like that Bill done by the end-

KARVELAS: Would you like it done with the Coalition, as a preference?

GALLAGHER: I don't think there is a preference, you know, I'm not too close to the negotiations, but-

KARVELAS: Yeah I understand, but the outcome would be very different based on those pathways, looking at their ideas.

GALLAGHER: Well, I think they have different concerns with the Bill, that's for sure. But from our point of view, a lot of stakeholders just want certainty on environmental law, and that's business, but also environment groups. And it's been kicked down the road for so long from, really, when Sussan Ley was the Minister, you know, five years since the Samuel Report, it's probably time that the Parliament got itself together and provided those stakeholders the certainty they need.

KARVELAS: Yeah, just finally, Sussan Ley is under a lot of pressure. That's not your political party, but they are certainly, you know, your opponents. Do you think it's gendered? As the Minister for Women, to keep a bit of context as to why I think your view might be important.

GALLAGHER: Ah, I think it's hard to be a female leader in politics. Not just from inside politics, from outside as well. I think there's still a lot of gendered assessment and impacts that the outside politics world places on female politicians, rightly or wrongly.

KARVELAS: Do you think she's not being given a fair go? Like, she seems to not have the authority Peter Dutton did?

GALLAGHER: Ah, well, I don't think all the problems she's facing are her fault. I definitely don't think that. You know, they've had this election loss and they're fracturing all over the place. And I think it's easy to point the finger at one person. But she has a tough job to do, and I can't see how it ends well, really, with how they're behaving over the past fortnight. But I definitely think women in politics, we still have a fair way to go before we get treated the same as our male colleagues.

KARVELAS: Priya’s Bill, you mentioned. That's, of course, about women who give birth to stillborn babies and then paid parental leave entitlements. But some Coalition men have spoken about late term abortion. That is not the view of many Coalition women who've really pushed back, and you've been successful with this Bill. But that debate is clearly a pretty toxic one. How do you reflect on it?

GALLAGHER: Well, we deliberately put time management around it in the Senate. I had to move a motion restricting debate hours on it because we knew it would go off the rails, really, and turn into a debate – or hear speeches – about things that it was not about. And out of respect for Priya's mum and dad, and Priya herself, you know, a very brave story, really, about law reform after a family's loss, we felt that we needed to manage that in the Senate because of the nature of the debate that it would spark. And we did that, and so it kind of went through a bit calmer than would normally, and I think that's a shame that we had to do that. There was a lot of hijacking of that Bill into pretending it was something that it wasn't. And it wasn't about late term abortions or terminations of pregnancy. It was simply about employers and their provision of PPL to women who experience a stillbirth. And we think that was a good law reform to make, and it passed. But yeah, I mean, we tried to avoid some of the hurtful and offensive speeches that were made. There were a couple, but we did pass the Bill in the end.

KARVELAS: Minister, thank you.

GALLAGHER: Thank you.