Senator the Hon Katy Gallagher

ROSS SOLLY, HOST: If you missed it, earlier this morning we had independent Senator David Pocock on the program. He was talking about his frustrations yesterday. He was trying to get, through the Senate, access to ANU documents which he says he hopes would shed some more light on what the true financial position is at the ANU. Now, his attempts to get access to these documents were blocked by the Labor Party and the Opposition, the Coalition. They joined together to block the move. Here is what David Pocock said about this this morning.

[Excerpt]

SENATOR DAVID POCOCK: This is a political protection racket from the Labor Party and the Liberal Party. This is a public institution that has had a total lack of transparency around their budgets and is justifying cutting hundreds of jobs. 

[End of excerpt]

SOLLY: Senator Katy Gallagher joins us. Senator Gallagher, are you running a political protection racket here?

SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER, MINISTER FOR FINANCE:  No, not at all. Yesterday, I said and I made it clear in the Senate, we didn't support the OPDs. He had about five of them, I think, on ANU. They were seeking thousands and thousands of documents, including any memoranda, emails, meeting dates, file notes, correspondence, financial records. That was repeated across five or six different motions, and my view was we have a number of investigations underway. I don't want to see the ANU diverted from dealing with the actual problems that we've raised with them by having to divert all their resources into these OPDs at a time when we have a number of investigations underway and that they should be allowed to do their work. We've got a Senate committee underway that's looking at similar things. And, you know, it wasn’t just seeking one or two documents-

SOLLY: Yeah, but that's his right, isn't it? Isn’t that his right? Isn't it the job of a Senator representing the ACT, and he's had a lot of constituents come forward to him, he said, and they're raising concerns, serious concerns, and he wants to get to the bottom of it. Because he, basically, he said to us this morning, Senator, that he doesn't believe what he's been told by the ANU.

GALLAGHER: I know. Senator Pocock's relationship with the ANU, and particularly with ANU management – where he's called for the Vice Chancellor to be sacked and for the Chancellor to be removed – is at an all-time low. I mean, I accept that. But the issues here about the OPDs was we didn't support them yesterday. We want these pieces of work to be undertaken that are underway now. The regulator is involved. They'll have an announcement this week, I understand, about some other work that they're going to do at ANU. And we should allow those to be finalised. And at the same time, Ross, I mean, ANU Renew is not going to be solved by an Order of Production of Documents. It's going to be solved by ANU actually dealing with the issues that have been raised. They're being raised with me and others- 

SOLLY: But you're putting a lot more trust, you're putting a lot more trust in the leadership than it seems Senator Pocock is. He just doesn't trust them to get the job done. He thinks that they're not being upfront and honest about the true financial state of the ANU. His point is, yes, you can wait for the TEQSA inquiry and the independent investigator. Yes, you can wait for the future Senate – but there are 500 people here whose jobs are on the line. This needs to happen now.

GALLAGHER: Yes, and we are making it clear to ANU, and I've done it a number of times, that they need to get this process back on track. There needs to be independent agreement and mediation on what the budget position is. But the Government is not going to intervene in the University, to the point that Senator Pocock is asking. And I think there are good reasons why governments do not interfere with universities, and for the most part, universities absolutely don't want government to interfere with them. There are good reasons about that. But I'm not standing here and defending ANU, and I saw Senator Pocock saying that I was a protection racket and that I was using ANU talking points. I am not. I am meeting with everybody who wants to meet with me about ANU. I am working through the issues. I'm talking to the Minister. I'm meeting with the regulator. I am doing all of those things because I care about what happens at ANU.

SOLLY: Is there a chance, though, Senator, that you may have misread the room here? You failed to read the room, and that there is enough momentum out there, and there are enough people out there who want and are calling on Senator David Pocock to take a stand and to do this thing, and you've totally misread the room by blocking his attempts yesterday?

GALLAGHER: Well, we said no to some motions yesterday, but that does not mean, and I would challenge anyone to say that I am not deeply involved in trying to sort out the problems at ANU. And in fact, I have staff coming to me as well who appreciate the fact that I am trying to work the way I am working, which is different to the way David's working. But just because you choose to go down a path and work on an issue the way Senator Pocock has, doesn't mean that that's the only issue or the only way to work on an issue, nor does it mean I don't care about ANU or I don't care about Canberra, which is some of the other assertions that have been made about my role at ANU. So, I am continuing, and I will continue, to try to speak up and resolve some of these problems and get it back on track, including the work that will be announced later this week.

SOLLY: What do you say then this morning, Senator Gallagher, to the 500 staff or so whose jobs are on the line, who David Pocock says, unless we get answers quickly, their jobs are gone. What do you say to those who may feel this morning that what you did yesterday in blocking that request has just increased the chances that they are going to lose their jobs? That you've stood in the way of an opportunity to maybe save their jobs?

GALLAGHER: Well, I don't agree with that. And these OPDs, if anyone wants to go and have a look at them, were not about that. They were about seeking, you know, go and have a read of what they are. Because they were not simply asking for a couple of documents. When I looked at these motions, it would have been hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours of the entire management team at ANU to respond to that. And do you know what the response date was? Thursday. I think early morning Thursday So two days. So let's just-

SOLLY: Can I ask you another question? Then, can I ask you, are you happy with the level of transparency from the ANU? Are you happy with the level of transparency that the ANU has shown?

GALLAGHER: No, I'm not. And I have told that to ANU, and I've said it a number of times in the media. I have been arguing for an independent mediator to come in and sit down with staff and student representatives and the management of ANU and agree on a process about transparency, accountability and budget agreement. Because none of it exists. But if we're to think that an OPD was going to deliver that outcome, I think people are mistaken, particularly in the way these OPDs were drafted. The ANU was going to be given two days, effectively, to answer what would be hundreds, if not thousands, of hours of work, and we did not support that yesterday. That does not mean I support the way ANU Renew has been undertaken, or where it's at right now. Or the fact that there are people who are worried about their jobs and want to remain at ANU. And I will continue to argue for that, Ross. And I will continue to work the way that I choose to work on this, not the way I'm told to work.

SOLLY: Okay, I'm going to read a couple of texts out just to finish, and you can comment on this. This texter says, and these are different texters, at least Pocock takes a stand and public publicly supports the ANU staff. Gallagher is completely missing the point. Someone else says, why would anyone meet with Senator Gallagher if she won't do the things senators can do to fix the problems at the ANU, sounds like a waste of time and breath. And somebody else says the Senator needs to remember that she's a representative of the ACT and needs to start listening to the community and not to the ANU leadership team. Again, I ask, whether you misread the room yesterday?

GALLAGHER: Well, Ross, I'm confident in the work that I'm doing on ANU, and it's driven by my long-standing representation of the people of Canberra. I'm choosing to work differently to another senator. That doesn't mean the way that either of us are working is wrong. I believe we both have the interests of Canberrans at our heart. I think we both want to see an end to what's going on at ANU, and I will continue to argue for that.

SOLLY: Senator, Katy Gallagher, I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.