Senator the Hon Katy Gallagher

SALLY SARA, HOST: For the next three days, the leaders from the business sector, unions and civil society will attend the Economic Reform Roundtable. It's already faced criticism from the Opposition which has labelled it a talk fest and potential outcomes, some were leaked last week. Katy Gallagher is the Minister for Finance and joins me now. Minister, welcome back to Breakfast and welcome to the studio.

SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER, MINISTER FOR FINANCE: Thanks for having me on and in.

SARA: That's right before we get to the round table, Israel has announced that it's torn up the visas of several Australian diplomats in the occupied Palestinian territories. This comes after Australia cancelled the visa of a far-right Israeli politician Simcha Rotman. Are relations between the Israeli and Australian Governments deteriorating?

GALLAGHER: Well, from our point of view, at a time when we need more diplomacy and more dialogue between countries, this is a disappointing decision. It's not, we're not, you know, surprised necessarily by it. We saw similar steps taken against other countries, for example, Norway, when decision was taken about recognising Palestine. But certainly, our view is this is unjustified. And, you know, we need more talk, more diplomacy, more channels in for discussion than ever, than we've needed before.

SARA: Has Australia lodged any protest about the cancelation of these visas? What action are we taking?

GALLAGHER: Well, that'll work through our normal channels, through foreign affairs and through the Foreign Minister. As you would expect, we've been very clear that we think this is unjustified and that we need more dialogue rather than less. And you know, we'll continue to ensure that Australia's views are understood but also argue against some of these decisions.

SARA: How important are those lines of communication into the occupied Palestinian territories, especially right now?

GALLAGHER: Yeah, so these are important positions in terms of us having understanding what's going on, also in, you know, supporting the coordination of aid and support on the ground. So, you know, this is an important position. It is important that Australia is represented there. So again, you know, we'll manage this in the normal way, as what you would expect us to do. But it is unjustified, and we are disappointed.

SARA: Let's return to the Economic Round Table. It begins today. It will be on for three days. There's been a lot of talk and much anticipation around the round table. How significant is this moment for Australia and its economy, and how soon will we see changes after the round table?

GALLAGHER: Look, I think this is an amazing opportunity. And all of the work that ministers have been doing, there's been 40 round tables, or more than 40 round tables, held in the lead up to this. I think when I'm talking with ministers, we're all struck by the level of buy in and interest of round table members, and I think that gives you a sense of the engagement that's been had, but also the willingness to put shoulders to the wheel, to genuinely talk about some of the challenges across the economy and what are, you know, probably the short term, medium term and long term, ideas about how we address some of them. So, I reckon there'll be a mix of probably, I think the PM called low hanging fruit or the short term, easier to do. And then I imagine there'll be ones that are more complex and more challenging, but the willingness and the calibre of people who are prepared to go and sit in the Cabinet Room for three days, I think, shows the level of interest there is across Australia.

SARA: Would it be your view that some of the changes would be implemented by the end of the year, for example?

GALLAGHER: Well, again, I think there'll probably be a mix like, today's session is on resilience, so we'll be talking around, you know, I think getting a briefing from Michele Bullock to kick things off, and then moving into other sessions around, capital investment, business investment, those types of matters. Tomorrow there'll be things on better regulation, on deregulation, there'll be budget sustainability discussions. Obviously, there'll be tax as well on Thursday. So, I imagine within that there'll be some things that we can move pretty quickly on and others that will take more time. 

SARA: The Treasurer, Jim Chalmers, says these three days will inform the next three budgets and beyond. How can you ensure that the outcomes of these talks are relevant in the long term when we have so much uncertainty, whether it's tariffs or conflicts, let alone challenges that are onshore? 

GALLAGHER: Yeah, you're certainly right about that. I mean, in a sense, the global uncertainty makes some of these discussions even more important, particularly, you know, today, when we're talking about resilience, but we'll, you know that that happens, you know, in a sense, you've got to bank that at the moment. And so, some of the things that we'll be talking about really are about what we can do here to drive productivity across our country, mindful of some of that global instability, but not allowing that to not allow us to progress some of the solutions and the ideas that we can deal with here.

SARA: The Productivity Commissioner, Danielle Wood, says economic growth hasn't been a priority in policy making for years. And Shadow Treasurer Ted O'Brien says that in the first term of the Albanese Government Labor has enacted five thousand new regulations. Does the government need to accept some responsibility for where we're at right now?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think, you know, I am interested Ted O'Brien saying that, because I think this is a bit of research they had the Parliamentary Library do, and when we asked them to do the same thing, under the Morrison Government, they had enacted five and a half thousand pieces of regulation. So, I think let's just leave that where that is. But the idea here is really about what we can do to drive economic growth, but also, you know, let's have an honest discussion about some of the regulation that exists. People always talk about deregulation. We want to talk about, you know, best regulation, and that might mean that we don't need some things, and we need others. But it's not just go in and slash and burn the regulation book. It's more about what is appropriate for now, how do all of those different pieces of regulation intersect with each other. How does it work across three levels of government and are there things we can be doing to make it better while still offering the protections that are needed to safeguard you know, Australian workers and individuals.

SARA: Turning to yesterday's Federal Court decision to fine Qantas a record $90 million for illegally sacking more than 1800 workers during the pandemic in 2020. Around half the money will go to the Transport Workers Union and there were some very interesting comments from Justice Lee in that decision. The Transport Workers Union mounted this case. So earlier this morning, we spoke to Andrew McKellar, the CEO of the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, about this aspect of the ruling, and this is what he had to say. 

ANDREW MCKELLAR, CEO ACCI: Well, we are concerned, because it does, you know, it seems to be a direct encouragement now, you know, I mean, in this particular case —

SARA: They were right. 

MCKELLAR: Well, they were right. They were borne out, you know, it was taken to the highest court in the land. So that is the outcome. But I think the concern is that what it will do is embolden others for the future to undertake litigation, regardless of the merits.

SARA: What's your response to that?

GALLAGHER: Look I think the message is, don't illegally sack your workers. That's pretty clear. And I think the TWU, you know, went out on a in essentially on a limb for their workers, funded a court case that was very expected and unpredictable about its outcome, but was set on the principle that this should not have occurred, and the court has found that it shouldn't have occurred, and they've awarded damages. That's how the court system works.

SARA: Does it show that there's a gap in enforcement there, that it was the union who got up to push this case through, which took a number of resources, rather than this kind of case being fought otherwise?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think we have, you know, the industrial relations system in the country, we have updated those laws since that case. So, we have our legislation. We have, you know, various dispute mechanisms. But I think ultimately this found its way into the courts, and the court has found in the workers' favour, and have acknowledged that in relation to the representatives of their union who took that action. We've always stood with the Qantas workers. We always believed that this was not right to sack people in the middle of a pandemic and outsource it all. And I think the message it would send to me if I was in the business sector, is, don't do that.

SARA: Katy Gallagher, you've got a busy three days ahead. Thank you very much for your time. 

GALLAGHER: Thanks so much.