Senator the Hon Katy Gallagher

ROSS SOLLY, HOST: I’ve been asking a question this morning, I started the sentence off, ‘we could improve Australia's economy by…’ and we have had some great suggestions this morning. I know that Jim Chalmers’ office have been writing all these down, maybe Katy Gallagher has as well, because it helps them do the heavy lifting with some ideas to put to the economic conference which begins tomorrow. Senator Katy Gallagher joins us on the breakfast show, good morning to you, Senator.

SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER, MINISTER FOR FINANCE: Good morning, Ross.

SOLLY: Look, as you would expect with the ABC Canberra Breakfast listeners, lots of wonderful ideas of thoughts that they have of how we could improve Australia's economy and turn things in a different direction or improve things in different areas. How crazy brave is the Government going to be on this?

GALLAGHER: Well, we're looking forward to the week's discussion. We've had 900 submissions, so I imagine some of those will have come from your listeners, Ross. And we've had the four federal members here – Alicia, Dave, Andrew and I have held some local productivity roundtables to get some local ideas as well. But it's an opportunity, right, to bring people together and to look at if there are areas of consensus around reform, how we get on with that. And I think there's some obvious areas that are coming up repeatedly, and I imagine through some of your listeners this morning.

SOLLY: Yeah, I mean, look these sorts of talkfests have been held before and some have said, well, not much has ever come out of it. But this time you go into this, Katy Gallagher, with a huge majority in the Parliament. If ever you're going to be brave, if ever you're going to do something cutting edge, this would be the time, wouldn't it?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think, you know, we're up for reform and the PM has said that. In fact, we've done quite a lot of reform, if you look at aged care and NDIS and other areas. But you also need to bring people with you. So we don't go in saying, oh well we've got 94 seats, therefore we can do whatever we like. We've got commitments we took to the election that we're implementing, and then there's some opportunities through this round table, if there are areas of consensus. And I'd also, you know, remind people whenever they say you've got this huge majority – if it requires legislative reform, we don't have a majority in the Senate, and that requires us to work with other parties on any ideas to get through. So, you know, the PM’s style is bringing people together and seeing if there's opportunities where we can move in the same direction. And I expect that that will be the approach that we take this week.

SOLLY: Yeah, I mean, it is going to be hard to get consensus, though, isn't it? As you said, you've got 900 submissions. You've got all these people coming into the Roundtable. I mean, the chances of everyone sitting there going, yeah that's a great idea, let's have a four-day working week, or let's, you know, reduce union bargaining power. You're not going to get that sort of consensus, are you? So in the end, governments, you know, Anthony Albanese, yourself, Jim Chalmers – you're going to have to draw a line in the sand and say, ‘this is important, we're going to do it, and if we lose some skin in the game by doing it, then so be it.’

GALLAGHER: Well we've, I mean, the invitees that have been coming in, and, in fact, the submissions that have been provided, they were asked to think about things in a not just from your own backyard, but to think more broadly. And so we expect that just because, you know, people represent a particular constituency, that they will actually be bringing their discussions at a whole of society level. And you're right, that is going to be difficult when people have entrenched views about some things. But I think definitely, if you look at the areas like everyone wants to have a chat about regulatory reform, red tape, housing approvals, how layers of red tape across layers of government, you know – local, state, territory, federal – work. All of those. I think you will see people agreeing at the centre that there is a problem, and agreeing that we need to get on and look at ways to fix it. But, you know, we'll see. We're not going in with any pre-determined views. We've done a lot of work getting to here, but now really this week is for those discussions to concentrate and firm up.

SOLLY: Yeah, I mean, some of the usual suspects are out there. Negative gearing is obviously on the table again, Katy Gallagher. Changes to the level of GST is out there. I mean, these are, these are game changing decisions. I wonder whether you've got the bottle to do it, though.

GALLAGHER: Well, what I'd say on tax is there is a session on, I think, Thursday afternoon around tax reform. People, you know, again they will put up ideas, and everyone's able to do that. That's what we've asked for. Put your ideas up. Then it's a matter for government to make decisions about what's possible and what's not. We've done some tax reform. We've done, we've got some tax policies that we took to the election that we will be implementing. But, you know, part of the discussion over the next couple of days is around budget sustainability and priorities for reform. And then, of course, there's a discussion around tax and I'm not going to sit here and pretend tax reform is easy, it's not. We did it in the ACT when I was Chief Minister and it's really hard, because what some people see as easy, other people fiercely object. And so that's a bit of, you know, the government can lead and we will lead, but we will also implement the commitments we took to the last campaign, and then we'll see what comes out through this Roundtable.

SOLLY: Yeah, just on the four-day week. That's, I mean, and many have said oh, this is just an ambit claim by the union movement. Do you think it can work, Katy Gallagher? Do you think there's a world where, and obviously in other parts of the world, it has been trialled, and even here in Australia we know some companies have already gone down this path. Do you think it could be a way to get people more focused at their job for four days, knowing they're going to have three days off?

GALLAGHER: Well I think from, you know, I'm a big supporter of flexibility at work. So, if you put the four-day week aside – and we acknowledge that lots of people work four days a week. You know, I look across the APS there’s, you know, large parts of our workforce that would work under those arrangements, they would be under part time arrangements under the EBA. But I think the thing for me is we've made a lot of reforms to IR in the last term and that was really about creating an industrial relations system that was more balanced and that allowed, you know, bargaining and it allowed workplace flexibility. And we're seeing the results of that. You know, we've got more people in work. We've got women's participation at record high. We've got wages growing again, and we see people utilising those workplace flexibility arrangements. And all of that is really positive for the labour market. So that's where the government comes from, and we've made those changes to facilitate those arrangements and are very supportive of it. But more broadly, about legislating a four-day week, we're not looking at that.

SOLLY: Just on another couple of quick issues if I can, before I let you go, Minister. Your own department, the Department of Finance, there's reports today that hot desking is going to have to really take off there if people want to be find somewhere to work. Way more staff than you have desks. I don't know whether you've ever hot desked in your career, Katy Gallagher. Are you a fan, and do you apologise to public servants who are in the Department of Finance that they may not be able to leave the photos of the kids on the desk anymore, and stuff like that?

GALLAGHER: Yes, I do hot desk, I mean because we go and work out of various offices around the country and so, you know, you do come in and out of offices. So, yes, I do it. I think it's a feature of modern workplaces, Ross. I mean, and this goes back to workplace flexibility. People wanting to work a couple of days a week at home, they come in and they work in the office. That is just the reality of life, and we're going to use the, you know, make the best use of that office space. And most private sector companies that I visit and talk with, most of them operate under those arrangements too. The days of offices and your set spot, really, it's not a big feature of modern workplaces. Shared meeting rooms, shared breakout spaces, shared desks because, you know, we have to look at how we use things in the best and most efficient way. But whenever I go to the Department of Finance and walk around, there's usually plenty of office space and desk space available for people.

SOLLY: So, if they want somewhere to work, they'll probably find it. Just on, a while back, you launched this Safe, Everywhere, Always survey for ACT women to share ideas about what makes them safer. I understand that is now closed. Were you inundated with suggestions, and are there any main takeaways you can tell us about from that?

GALLAGHER: Yeah, and we'll be doing something, you know, we will be formally responding to that. I had about 3000, just over 3000 response from Canberra women.

SOLLY: Wow. Were you surprised by that number? That's a lot.

GALLAGHER: Yeah, well I was pleased that people were prepared to engage on it. And also from different age groups.

SOLLY: Pleased, but again I guess on the other side, Senator Gallagher, not pleased that there are so many people who feel obviously not safe here in the ACT that they felt that they wanted to contribute to this discussion?

GALLAGHER: Yeah, and a bit disheartening that young women, you know, teenagers and that, are feeling the same things that I felt when I was a teenager. So that's a shame that is, you know, that's the disheartening bit. Lots of ideas, though. There were a lot of requests for better lighting. That seemed to be a really big issue about how we create safe places for women to be out and about at whatever time they choose. And at the moment I don't think that's widely felt across women across Canberra. I think they do take precautions, or they don't go out for a walk, or they don't meet a friend because they feel unsafe. So, I'll be responding formally and also working with the ACT Government about what we found through that.

SOLLY: One other question for you, before I let you go. We have confirmation now that the Chief Executive of the Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency, Dr Mary Russell, has sent a letter to ANU Vice Chancellor, Genevieve Bell, raising numerous concerns about the culture of the ANU Council and executive leadership. I know that you were talking about this last week with Saskia, but given that this letter is now out there, I mean, at what stage do you as a government and a representative here in Canberra, Katy Gallagher, need to step in and suggest that maybe while some of these inquiries are underway, that it might be, as some have said, time for Julie Bishop and Genevieve Bell just to stand aside until the air has been cleared?

GALLAGHER: Yeah, so I have been deeply involved in all of the matters relating to ANU. And as I said last week, I don't think I've seen such emotional distress at any change management process that I've ever seen in my time, in my career. And I continue to engage with ANU staff as well, including some that reached out over the weekend. So I'm really worried about what's happening at ANU. I do want all of these processes, the regulator and whatever process the regulator puts in place, to be allowed to happen. I'm not one to call people's heads right now. I think there's some work to do. And I also think that there is opportunity for the ANU leadership and ANU Council to actually get this into a much better place. To reset and to get some independent mediation in place that brings parties together, and there's nothing stopping them doing that now.

SOLLY: So not – so in a way, without formally stepping aside, just handing over the role to an independent regulator, rather than Genevieve Bell and Julie Bishop?

GALLAGHER: No, more that I think – well, where we are at the moment is that management is saying one thing, and staff are not accepting that and not believing it. And there's no trust, and there's no way to bridge that gap. So, what I've said to the Vice Chancellor is an idea to solve that could be to get an independent mediator in that brings staff and management together, and at least begins the process, or re-begins the process with an agreed set of facts. Like, management are saying they have to make all these savings. Staff are saying that they don't believe the numbers. So we have to bridge that. Like there's, at the moment, there is no shared understanding of what is underway with Renew ANU, and it needs to change. And there's nothing to stop the Council or the Vice Chancellor from taking those, you know, resetting and restarting what has been a terribly distressing process for a lot of people at ANU.

SOLLY: We'll leave it there, Katy Gallagher. Looking forward to seeing the economic get together over the next few days. All the best with it, thank you for your time this morning.

GALLAGHER: Thanks for the opportunity to talk, Ross.