Senator the Hon Katy Gallagher

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Now returning to Canberra, the Government actually has a reason to be a little more relaxed about US relations today. Australians investing in the United States will be spared from attacks of up to 15 per cent that the Trump administration was threatening to impose as revenge on countries that tax tech giants. That includes things like our News Media Bargaining Code, as it's known, technical term. I want to discuss this and lots of other things with the Finance Minister Katy Gallagher. Katy Gallagher, welcome.

SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER, MINISTER FOR FINANCE: Thanks for having me on, PK.

KARVELAS: Jim Chalmers has thanked the US Treasury Secretary after his decision to abandon the Trump administration's retaliatory tax proposal on these tech giants. Now, I know he raised this directly in a call on Wednesday. Has the Australian Government confirmed that the tax is now dead?

GALLAGHER: Well, PK, obviously we've been advocating around this and other matters with the Trump administration for some time. I know the PM raised it with American officials and leaders at the G7 and at the Treasurer, as you said this week. My understanding is that that bill, the bill that's before the Senate, would need amendments to be passed to deal with that. I'm not fully across all of the way the legislation process works in the states, but that is something that the administration would support. So, we are very confident that should that happen, that we would be very pleased with that outcome. And really what we were arguing here was, we have a lot of Australian investment in the US that this would definitely act as a handbrake if not a significant deterrent to that investment continuing.

KARVELAS: And is the Australian Government claiming responsibility for this U-turn? Was it just us? Was it the Treasurer and the Prime Minister? You're saying that led to this backflip?

GALLAGHER: Well, certainly having the Treasurer and the PM raise this directly with American counterparts would've helped in certainly making a very clear message about our concerns about that element of the bill. But I know it has been raised by other Australian investors through their normal channels as well. And I understand other countries had also raised it. So, this is an issue that didn't just affect Australia, but we were very concerned about it and very pleased with what we've heard to date coming back in response that our concerns have been recognised and that will be dealt with in the bill.

KARVELAS: So, does this clear the way for the News Media Bargaining Code?

GALLAGHER: Well, we've got some more work to do there in the new government with the new minister who's going to be leading on that work. But we remain committed to ensuring that we can support independent and news journalism in this country in a changing landscape that's changing faster than we can see at times. We remain committed to that and through the proposal that we outlined towards the end of last term.

KARVELAS: Now, there are still issues that Bessent left the door open on. He said that they would use this continued tax policy of threatening countries if they don't like laws and there are laws that don't like of ours. The GST has come up before. We also know of course our PBS is an issue. Are these still looming issues for us?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think look, we are going to have to continue to navigate issues with the US administration across government. I mean, I think that we have a new – the administration that is there has I guess their agenda and how they're pushing their agenda is different to previous administrations. So, we are dealing with that across government. But I would also say the PM's been very clear about the things that are not going to be on the table for consideration, PBS being one of them, but there are others as well. And we govern and raise revenue in our national interest for our national interest and that will never change.

KARVELAS: Just on defence spending, you opened the door the other day to more spending on defence. Just to clarify, are you saying you knoe that Australia must spend more on defence?

GALLAGHER: The point I was making, PK, and I'm the Finance Minister, so I say no to a lot of things, was we have made an allocation and we have significantly increased defence spending. When we came to Government, it was I think just below 2 per cent and there were questions about the capability. There'd been a lot of media releases released, not a lot delivered. And so, there's been a huge amount of work in that first term by Richard Marles and Pat Conroy to ensure that Defence has the resourcing they need, but also that it's delivering the capability we need. And that will continue and sitting where I sit with all of those pressures coming to us, and we talk about it a lot, including on your show, about defence, aged care, NDIS hospitals, interest costs on our debt. They're the big, through those key areas, are the big demands on the budget and I expect there'll continue to be demands. So, where there is a need for a capability and we are told that that need exists, our approach has been to find the funding and the resourcing that's needed. And that's the approach we'll continue to take. It's the point the PM has made repeatedly, including today.

KARVELAS: Donald Trump threatened Spain with higher tariffs if it failed to increase defence spending in line with the other NATO countries. I mean that could set a precedent for us too, right, as we negotiate with the United States?

GALLAGHER: Well, as I said, we'll continue to engage with the United States across Government over the next three years as you would expect. They are our strongest ally. They're an important relationship. We value it, we work with it, but we also make decisions in our national interest. We have increased defence spending. We've got a lot of money built in the forward estimates to ensure that we have the capability we need, but we make these decisions in our interests on our terms.

KARVELAS: But on that reckoning, I understand that I think most Australians would agree that you should make decisions in our national interest. Do you believe it will be in our national interest to increase defence spending beyond what you've already budgeted for?

GALLAGHER: Well, again, it's linked the capability. Where there is a need for additional capability in defence and we're provided with that advice, our practise has been to find room to make those investments. That is what we've done since we first came to Government. When the Defence Strategic Review and the National Defence Strategy was released, they were all underpinned by decisions that we took about resourcing and capability. But you can't just, I don't – and the PM has said this a number of times, but to just pull a number out and say that's the number we should fund, which is the approach the Opposition took and as I understand it, are still taking, but not actually be able to articulate how and what and where that investment would go is a problem in defence. And so, I have no doubt there will be further requests across Government including from defence, and we will work through them in our normal budget ways.

KARVELAS: There's a few other questions I have. A couple of people in the Liberal party saying interesting things, including Angus Taylor, who says that the Labor Party subvert democracy when asked about gender quotas. Is it a subversion of democracy?

GALLAGHER: I feel like I should take Angus aside and talk to him about structural barriers and structural inequality, but I'm not sure I'd make much progress. But absolutely not. I mean, absolutely not. What gender quotas have meant for us is that across our membership that women and men are treated equally in their opportunity to represent through being preselected through the Senate or the House of Representatives. And it's worked, PK. We had this debate, would you believe, and resolved it in 1994. And here we are 31 years later, and the Liberal party are still not coming to grips with it. I mean, it's just extraordinary. And to see Tony Abbott and Angus Taylor and others continue to rail against taking measures to increase women in their party, it’s a problem.

KARVELAS: Well, they say they want to increase – to just reflect what they said, Dan Tehan, and I asked, he did not back the subverting democracy line, but when I asked him, are all Liberal men in Parliament because of merit, he kind of said, well, that's a good question for everyone in parliament. I mean, that's the question, right? Men in the Labor Party, are they there on merit? How do we work out this merit question?

GALLAGHER: Well, look, I mean I feel like the answer to that question is fairly easy. You've been elected by the people of your constituency. So, yes, there is a meritorious process in that like if you're not up to the job, you won't get voted in. So, at the general elections level, that is a process where people get to see who's contending for this job and who do I want to be given this job. Where the ALP has made a difference is ensuring that through our own membership that we are ensuring that women members are getting the same opportunity that men are getting through the party system. And what we recognised 31 years ago and beyond, before that, was that our systems and our structures did not provide that equality of access to have a fair go. None of the women elected to the Parliament are just assured a spot in Parliament. They go through our pre-selection process, they have to win an election. And so, this is the problem that the Liberal party have failed to deal with is they've got the problem ID'd and they say this after every election, oh no, we don't have enough women. That's terrible. And then nothing happens and they'll continue to see women leave their support base because their party doesn't represent, if you look out, the Australian community.

KARVELAS: Just one extra issue that sort of broke this afternoon. Jim Chalmers has now released a guest list for the economic roundtable in August. Now I know it's his roundtable, but you and him work very closely together, so I know you're all over the people invited. They feature the business lobby groups, unions, alongside the head of the Australian Council of Social Services and the Productivity Commission as well. Is this just a case of the usual suspects?

GALLAGHER: No, not at all. Although I think we have said, and there'll be various ways people can get involved, there's a huge amount of interest obviously in the productivity roundtable. But Jim Chalmers, when he gave his address, and I think in the Q&A afterwards, he did speak about inviting those large representative groups that represent big parts of the Australian economy. So, it's no surprise you would have the ACTU there representing workers, the Business Council representing business, ACOSS representing the community sector –

KARVELAS: Why isn't someone like Allegra Spender who has really, really pushed the envelope on tax reform, why isn't she there?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think if you noted in the Treasurer's media release, he does make reference to the fact that there has been interest from states and from crossbenchers, and that he'll have more to say about that as he finalises the process.

KARVELAS: Can you give me a hint of what that might look like? Is there going to be a parallel process?

GALLAGHER: I think the hint is in the media release where it acknowledges it and says that that is something that he's considering, but that there would be further additions to the list that he had announced today expecting in that room you can have 25 or so people around the table, and I think that announcement today was perhaps around a third of that. So, there's still a bit of a way to go, but we acknowledge the parliament itself and the states and territories are going to be interested in what happens.

KARVELAS: Very interesting. Always great to speak to you, Finance Minister. Thank you.

GALLAGHER: Thanks, PK. Can I just jump in and just say, just to Mechelle Turvey, just acknowledge her extraordinary leadership and as a mother, the role that she's played in a very, very distressing case. I just wanted to acknowledge that off the back of that last story.

KARVELAS: I'm actually very glad you mentioned this story, which we're about to cover very shortly again. This is a pretty devastating and heartbreaking day I think for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders around the country in the wake of Cassius Turvey's murder and the sentencing today, the pain and the leadership of that woman is extraordinary.

GALLAGHER: It is. It is extraordinary. And you can see Cassius was obviously a very brave boy, but you can see where it came from and I think all of us are in awe of the strength and power of that woman.

KARVELAS: Thank you.