Senator the Hon Katy Gallagher

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Well, a rate cut could remain a distant prospect with this month’s inflation figure suggesting price pressures are moderating, but slowly. Headline inflation remained within the Reserve Bank’s target range between two and three per cent, but the trimmed mean figure, which the RBA actually pays a lot of attention to, jumped up to 3.5 per cent. But that’s not the only story. It comes as today emerges as D-Day, as the Government tries to get – get this – 36 bills through the Senate. Joining me to discuss how on Earth they plan to do that, because I’m intrigued, is the Finance Minister, Katy Gallagher. Welcome to the program, Minister.

SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER, MINISTER FOR FINANCE: Good morning, thanks for having me on, Patricia.

KARVELAS: Okay, so Labor has three dozen bills it wants to pass by the end of the day. I’ll just tell people about a couple. I can’t get to the 36, it’s too many. RBA reform, Build to Rent, the social media ban for under-16s, new migration powers and the Future Made in Australia. To get them all passed, you will need to be able to guillotine debate which can only happen with the support of other senators. Of course, you don’t have the numbers in the Senate. I’ve spoken with others you need the support of, the Coalition and some crossbenchers, this morning. They aren’t going to provide you that support, are they?

GALLAGHER: Well, this is – as you said – the final day, the final push. We’re very keen to get as much of the important pieces of legislation through the Senate as we can. We’ve already had a number of bills pass this week, about six, including Help to Buy, which was a great result. And we rate these as equally important. So, I guess the position we’ve taken is to be upfront with the Senate, say “these are the bills we’d like to get done,” and work for the support of the Senate. It might be that there’s different kind of arrangements on different pieces of legislation, but you know, we want to work as hard as we can right up to the end of the sitting day.

KARVELAS: 36 in a day?

GALLAGHER: The Senate chooses its own time for dealing with bills and obviously we’ve had the Coalition block a lot of legislation this year. So, there’s been some weeks when there’s been a refusal to pass any legislation, so naturally there’s a build-up towards the end of the year. Our position is these are the important bills, we’re being upfront, we’re allowing time, we’re trying to do it in a way that gives people the opportunity to talk and not be locked in on particular bills–

KARVELAS: How is that the case? I don’t understand that. If you’re guillotining this, how is that possible?

GALLAGHER: Well, the motion sets up how we’d like to treat the bills through the day. So, it allows time on each of the bills. It allows for second reading on the bills. And we will sit until they’re finished. Like, if people want to sit through the night, we’re prepared to do that to get these bills done. But we would like a vote on them. You know, so if the vote’s no, the vote’s no. But we’re dealing with the bills. We’re of course arguing for as many votes in support as we can, and we will work hard right up until the end of the sitting day.

KARVELAS: Okay, but what’s your priorities? Ultimately, I find it very hard to believe you’re going to get 36 bills passed, so what are the must-pass bills in the next day?

GALLAGHER: Well, there are a range of bills where, for example, on social media, the Coalition have said they want that done by the end of the sitting week. So, that one is there, obviously key. There’s those migration bills that come out of the High Court case, we would like those done, the Coalition have indicated they will support those. There are other bills like the RBA reforms, as you say, where the Coalition has said no, so obviously we’re talking–

KARVELAS: Can you give me any indication of what negotiations with the Greens, and what you might give them?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think the Greens have been clear in earlier months about some of the amendments they would want to see. So, it was around the ability for the Treasurer to override decisions, which is essentially the status quo that exists there now–

KARVELAS: And are you prepared to give them the status quo?

GALLAGHER: Well, they’re the discussions that we’ve been having, so they’ve been focused on that.

KARVELAS: But you’re open to it?

GALLAGHER: Well, we would like that Bill through. The Coalition have locked themselves out. We would have preferred to work with the Coalition. They’ve blocked this Bill. So, that leaves us no alternative but to work with other parties in the Senate.

KARVELAS: Okay. I just want to get some clarity on it, in terms of the Treasurer’s right to override the RBA – which is not used, but is in the current situation – you are open to allowing that remaining?

GALLAGHER: That’s right, I mean, they’re the discussions we’ve been having. Essentially, those are maintaining the current, so, it’s not a new requirement, those are in the existing–

KARVELAS: But you were going to remove it?

GALLAGHER: Well, we were, and that was our preferred position that we were trying to negotiate through with Peter Dutton’s Opposition, but Peter Dutton’s Opposition, as they’ve done on housing bills and everything else, want to block. They’ll engage and they’ll keep you hanging and then they block, and that’s what we’ve seen happen on a number of pieces of important legislation. They’re not interested in implementing reform. They’re interested in blocking and frustrating and that is why we will go to other members of the Senate to seek to get our legislation through.

KARVELAS: Some are receiving government amendments to consider as late as 1:00AM this morning. I’ve spoken to – well, I speak to a lot of people in the Parliament, you’d expect that. 1:00 am with amendments, what are you doing?

GALLAGHER: Well, again, I don’t think – I mean, I’ve been in the Senate a while now. This is not unusual for the end of the sitting period. There is always a bit of a rush on with different things. There may be, you know, amendments coming in late. But there have been months and months of negotiations on these bills. So, I don’t accept that people would be learning of things at the last minute if they have been engaged with us on discussions about how to progress bills. They will know what that’s about. Sometimes those amendments land a bit late, but we get the job done if those amendments are important for the passage of the bill.

KARVELAS: Okay. According to the Coalition, you have this fortnight only twice asked for extra hours. Tuesday this week for education bills, I’ve been told, Thursday last week for aged care. The Coalition did agree to both, but you haven’t asked for extra hours on any other sitting days of the fortnight. So, they say, why weren’t you asking for extra hours then and now you’re just trying to ram it all through? Is it just theatrics? Why weren’t you asking for those extra hours?

GALLAGHER: Well, we have been open, and I am involved in a lot of discussions – we are open to sitting late on every day, if we have the support of the chamber. Obviously, we have to have the support of the chamber.

KARVELAS: But why did you only ask twice?

GALLAGHER: We have been engaging with the Coalition and other members to work out ways to progress legislation through the sitting fortnight. We have sat late. We would agree to extended hours. We would agree to extended hours tonight. I mean, we are not–

KARVELAS: So, you want to go for one of those 24 hour freakish periods now, is that what we’re about to get into?

GALLAGHER: If that is how we get these important bills through, then we are prepared to sit and wait. And we did that on Tuesday. We indicated to the Senate that we would sit until those five bills were finished, we didn’t put a timeframe on it, and in the end the Senate agreed to all of those bills by about 11:00 pm. Now, if that took until 4:00 am, we were prepared to sit. Obviously, people work hard in this building, so sitting until midnight or 4:00 am every night of the week is not ideal and senators are under a lot of pressure. So, I think when we do sit extended hours, we try to do so sparingly. But it’s also how you utilise the hours of the sitting day anyway. I mean, we start at 9:00 am today. The normal time is to finish at 6:00 pm. We could get a lot of bills done if people chose to use that time.

KARVELAS: Okay. ABC is reporting talks between Labor and the Coalition over election funding reforms have reached a last-minute impasse. What’s the sticking point you can tell us about?

GALLAGHER: Well, we haven’t been able to reach agreement with the Coalition, so this is another Bill where we’ve spent a lot of time, and there’ve been a lot of meetings. Senator Farrell’s been dealing with this and I’ve seen how hard he’s been working. We haven’t been able to land it in this week. There were some last-minute amendments, talking about last-minute amendments, that were–

KARVELAS: What sort of amendments did they want?

GALLAGHER: I’m not across those, PK, they were happening last night. I think the decision taken was we won’t proceed with that Bill today –

KARVELAS: Okay, so that’s off the table?

GALLAGHER: It’s off the table for today, but Senator Farrell will be working over summer with all senators across the senate chamber to try and reach agreement for that. We want to get big money out of politics. We want to have donation caps. We haven’t been able to land it. The independents, I know, have some strong views about this and Senator Farrell will work over summer, and we will try and deal with this in February. Because we’re really, really very keen to get this done before the election.

KARVELAS: Okay, so, in February, you want the Parliament to come back and deal with electoral reform in February?

GALLAGHER: That’s the intention. So, Senator Farrell will, as I said, reach out over summer and try – there’s a lot of bills that will still be, important bills still to get done in February. There’s bills like production tax credits, Nature Positive, those bills we intend to deal with in February.

KARVELAS: Okay, well let’s go to Nature Positive, because this is quite the story. The Prime Minister has been reported to have caved into Western Australia’s demands and killed that Nature Positive deal when Tanya Plibersek was basically on the cusp of a deal with the Greens. Why did the Prime Minister do that?

GALLAGHER: Well, that’s not my understanding. And I’ve been involved, obviously, in a lot of meetings this week around what bills we could get through. We weren’t able to reach agreement on Nature Positive.

KARVELAS: That’s not what the Greens are saying.

GALLAGHER: Well, I was in those meetings, PK. We weren’t able to reach agreement to everyone’s satisfaction. I don’t think it’s unusual that we would want to fully understand some of the amendments that the Greens were seeking.

KARVELAS: I just, I don’t mean to be impolite, but I have to say, it’s been reported and I’ve spoken to the Greens as well, that they’d sealed the deal and that the Prime Minister stepped in and pulled it. And that that had happened after the WA Premier, Roger Cook, had called him. Did that happen?

GALLAGHER: Well, I’m not aware of that. I was in meetings in which we discussed Nature Positive, and I agree we were close. But there was some further work that we wanted done–

KARVELAS: Can you tell me what it was?

GALLAGHER: Well, there was a range of amendments and it was really having a full understanding of what those amendments would mean in practice. I mean, I’m not the Environment Minister, so I haven’t been close to the policy concepts–

KARVELAS: But was the Environment Minister essentially rolled by the Prime Minister when she had worked on a deal?

GALLAGHER: No. Ministers work on – they can get it to a certain point, and then there has to be agreement that all parties are satisfied. So, there’s absolutely no doubt that Tanya Plibersek was working closely, not just with the Greens but with others, to see if we could land Nature Positive. We weren’t able to do so, just like electoral reform. There’s either a sticking point, in relation to electoral reform, or further work to be done to understand some of the implications of what was being sought. And I was in those meetings. That is my assessment, or that’s my view, of the discussions.

KARVELAS: So, your assessment is that the Prime Minister didn’t just override Tanya Plibersek to suit the WA establishment, including the Premier?

GALLAGHER: My view, and the one that we put in that meeting, was we weren’t in a position to reach agreement on some of the requests of the Greens this week, and that further work–

KARVELAS: Can you give me just one example of something that was too much for you?

GALLAGHER: Well again, I’m not – my job is to try and facilitate and get as much legislation through. I haven’t been close to the negotiations on specific pieces of legislation outside my portfolio responsibility, but there were a number of amendments sought, and we weren’t able to reach agreement on that. But it is an important piece of legislation, and the PM made it clear and made it clear in those meetings that his intention was to deal with that in February.

KARVELAS: I want to move to Lidia Thorpe, Independent Senator Lidia Thorpe has been suspended from the chamber for the rest of the week for throwing papers at Pauline Hanson. Now, she’s spoken this morning on our sister program, News Breakfast, on television. And she has said she’d do it again, no regrets. She says she’s dealing with racism.

GALLAGHER: Well, the Senate had to take a stand. I think if people saw what happened yesterday they would not tolerate it in their workplace. And we have seen escalating behaviour, escalating aggressive behaviour, in the chamber, not just from Senator Thorpe. But the Senate had to push back, and the consequence was that she was suspended from the Senate. We don’t do that lightly. In fact, I don’t recall it being done during my time in the Senate. I think it’s a power that’s used very sparingly. But this week alone, we’ve had censures, we’ve had abusive language, we’ve had abusive gestures–

KARVELAS: She said she would do it all again, though? So, what do you do?

GALLAGHER: Well, this is part of the problem, PK. Normally, after a censure or poor behaviour in the chamber, a senator is asked to withdraw and a senator is asked to remain compliant with the standing orders. And one of the issues we’ve had is that is being tested. Now, there has to be a consequence, as I said. Nobody enjoyed what happened yesterday. Senator Hanson, whether you agree with her or not, should not be aggressively approached in the chamber with paper thrown in her face. I mean, it’s extraordinary. And we have all these chats about appropriate behaviour and setting the standard and being a leader of Australian workplaces, and I think if anyone watched what happened in that chamber, at times, they would be shocked. And I think the Australian public expects us to follow through with some consequences when that behaviour happens. And that’s what we did yesterday.

KARVELAS: Senator Katy Gallagher, before I say goodbye to you, I’ve just learned that the crossbench – or David Pocock at least – will be making Nature Positive a condition of any guillotine support. Where does that leave you? Are you prepared to?

GALLAGHER: Well obviously we will talk to Senator Pocock. He indicated that to me last night. I think he indicated it to the Prime Minister. You know, we will – it’s a long way before 9:00 am in Senate time. There’s a lot of discussions to be had.

KARVELAS: So, you’re open to that?

GALLAGHER: That’s a position that’s been put by Senator Pocock. I indicated to Senator Pocock last night that I didn’t believe that that was agreeable to us because we hadn’t been able to reach agreement on that Bill, so I indicated that back to him. Obviously, he is still pushing for that. So, we will continue to work across the chamber, PK. It isn’t over until those final bills ring, whenever they ring at whatever time.

KARVELAS: Minister, what a morning. What an interview.

GALLAGHER: It’s going to be a bit of a ride.

KARVELAS: So many bills, so little time. Always love speaking to you, especially face to face. Thank you.

GALLAGHER: It’s lovely to see you in the studio.