Senator the Hon Katy Gallagher

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: The Albanese Government is coming under pressure to do more on cost-of-living relief after a new report pointed to higher-than-expected inflation next year. The International Monetary Fund says Australia will have the second-highest rate of inflation among developed economies, leading the Opposition to brand Australia as being at the back of the pack. But, as the Opposition hones its economic attacks, it’s giving more mixed messages on whether it wants a new debate on abortion. Katy Gallagher is the Finance Minister and also the Minister for Women and our guest. Minister, welcome to the program.

SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER, MINISTER FOR FINANCE: Thanks for having me on, PK.

KARVELAS: Does the IMF report show your efforts to bring down inflation aren’t having the desired effect quickly enough?

GALLAGHER: Well, these reports come out from time to time, PK. And certainly from the inflation rate we inherited – which had a 6 in front of it – we’re now in a position where it’s been halved and has a 3 in front of it. So, there’s no doubt inflation is past its peak and it’s tracking down. But I don’t think you can look at one number in isolation in this report, or indeed what’s happening across the economy. So, you know, when you look at comparable countries, often their interest rates rose higher than ours in Australia and they rose earlier. So, we can see that when you compare yourself, say, with Canada, the UK, America, New Zealand. And also, unemployment in many of those countries went higher and sharper than it has here. So, I think there’s a lot of strength, really. Particularly in our labour market. And we haven’t seen – while growth has been slow and sluggish, we haven’t seen a quarter of negative results, which many other countries have seen. So, these reports always have a lot of data but I think you’ve got to look at it as a whole, what’s happening across the economy as a whole, and there’s a lot of good things happening across ours.

KARVELAS: But the IMF says Australia will have the second-highest inflation rate next year among advanced economies – that’s not in dispute, right? If it’s the second-highest in the world, does the government take responsibility for that? That it’s still too high and that of course the government is part of that story?

GALLAGHER: Well, we have our own forecast for inflation, as does the Reserve Bank. And it doesn’t identically match up with the IMF. But of course, we take responsibility for making sure that the decisions we take are not impacting in a negative way on inflation. So, you see a lot of the decisions we’ve taken since coming to government have been, how can we provide cost-of-living support – as you said in your intro – without adding to the inflation challenge? How do we make sure we’re getting the Budget in much better shape? So, paying down debt, delivering surpluses, making sure we’re putting upward revisions to revenue back into the Budget to strengthen it. And all of this – and the Governor herself has made the remarks that surplus budgets help in the work that the Bank is doing. So, yes, we take responsibility, we have every day since we’ve been in government, and we’re finding that right balance – trying to strike that right balance between cost-of-living relief, getting the Budget in better shape –

KARVELAS: And you’re still convinced it’s the right balance?

GALLAGHER: Well, again, these are decisions that the government takes, and I would say that having a labour market where we’ve created a million jobs since coming to government is a really good thing for the country. Having the unemployment rate –

KARVELAS: It’s also led to this much longer period of inflation staying higher. So, yes, the points you make are absolutely correct, that if you did it in a shorter period, you’d have those consequences, but the alternative now is that a whole lot of people are living with stubbornly high inflation when they’re seeing around the world it fall faster.

GALLAGHER: Well, we’ll see – I mean, the quarterly results come out next week. The last monthly results, as you’d remember PK, had a 2 in front of it for inflation. So, there is no doubt inflation is moderating. And that is great. When we came to government, as I said, it had a 6 in front of it, it’s now got a 3 in front of it, we’ll get the next quarterly results I think at the end of October, which will give us another indication of what’s happening. But we’re also keeping people – not only keeping people in jobs, creating jobs. A million jobs. I mean, this is a remarkable achievement and if, you know, as Jim always says, trying to get inflation back under control without smashing the economy is a key priority. And you know, the unemployment rate, the strength of the labour market, people earning more with wages growth and creating jobs is part of the balance that we’re trying to strike.

KARVELAS: I’ve spoken to people inside the Government who are worried about a Trump presidency affecting the world’s economy, but Australia’s economy. Are you worried about that?

GALLAGHER: Well, obviously the American election is a matter for the American people. And America is a key ally of ours and we would work with any administration that the American people choose –

KARVELAS: But are you worried about the impact of tariffs, all of the suite of changes, firing the Reserve’s secretary – is that the sort of stuff that worries you at an economic level?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think, in a general sense, obviously Australia is not immune from global economic impacts. But that isn’t just specifically tied to any outcome in an American election, there’s a whole range of things happening around the world. The conflict in the Middle East, the war in Ukraine, there’s a whole range of things that impact economies around the world. Our job is to make sure that we make the decisions here, domestically, that are the best outcome for our people. For people in Australia and particularly, at the moment, making sure we’re managing those cost-of-living pressures.

KARVELAS: I want to change the topic. Abortion has been discussed a lot this week, and we’ve heard strong statements from senior members of the Shadow Cabinet yesterday saying they don’t want abortion back on the agenda. Are you satisfied the issue is now settled?

GALLAGHER: Well, time will tell. I mean, I’m part of I guess a group of loads of women around Australia who have campaigned for decades for safe and legal access to abortion services for women in Australia. And it’s really only relatively recently, when you think about it, that those rights have been achieved. So, for most jurisdictions, it’s only been achieved in the last 20 years. So, I always get worried when I see this debate raised because I know that you have to remain vigilant on these matters and hard fought-for gains can often be wound back very quickly. So, I think it’s concerning whenever it’s raised, because I thought in many of those jurisdictions, we had won that battle and we had made sure that women were able to have access to safe and legal abortion if they needed it. So, it worries me. I think we have to remain vigilant. And I think from the Opposition’s point of view, and certainly I do welcome the comments from Senator Hume and Sussan Ley about you know their response yesterday – but as we see in so many things, when the Nationals raise an issue, it often – they have a very significant say in that Coalition. So, time will tell, I think. But I’m kind of over abortion being played as a political football. It’s been happening for too long and we should just get on and accept that it’s an access to health issue for most women.

KARVELAS: I spoke with the Chief Executive of Women’s Health Victoria, Sally Hasler. She says the costs of getting an abortion are becoming prohibitive and in fact, it’s basically a postcode lottery for lots of women. Given your government is pro-choice, why not make publicly funded abortions available in hospitals, which was requested in a Senate report and the government has not adopted?

GALLAGHER: Yes, it was a recommendation in that report. And the Commonwealth doesn’t run hospitals, essentially, is the answer. I mean, that is a matter for State and Territory governments. They make decisions about what services are funded and provided in hospitals, and in many hospitals, those services would be provided for particular women in particular circumstances –

KARVELAS: But they’re not universally offered and Labor did have a policy before the 2019 election. Given you are pro-choice, why not make it easier for women to access abortion?

GALLAGHER: Well, our job is to make sure we are funding the health system properly, and our big responsibility lies in primary care and in medicines on the PBS. And we are doing both of those things and working with the States and Territories on a hospital agreement. You know, abortion is safe and legal in Australia in every jurisdiction and there is a range of ways women access it, whether it be through the provision of medicine or through surgical termination through publicly funded –

KARVELAS: But as the Minister for Women, do you think it’s worth revisiting that idea and the Senate report and in previous Labor policy?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think – and I work with Ged Kearney and Mark Butler in this area, they’re doing a lot of work in terms of women’s health and the provision of services around women’s health and what more needs to be done. I mean, my view is we need to make sure that women are able to access the full suite of health services they need to live a healthy life. And that’s what we’re focused on. So, there’s more to be done, not just in reproductive health but in a whole range of areas. And you know, we’ve got more work underway in that regard.

KARVELAS: I want to talk about the Lidia Thorpe protest and the consequences. Do you support a motion to censure Lidia Thorpe?

GALLAGHER: Look, I think there will be discussions, obviously, across the chamber about any response to that behaviour on Monday. You know, I think it was –

KARVELAS: Is Labor likely to support it?

GALLAGHER: Well, we’ll certainly have discussions with people. I mean, we need to work out a way to ensure that the institution of the Senate and you know the important role it plays in democracy is upheld and respected. And I think that’s at times challenged with some behaviour in particular from Senator Thorpe. But she also does like attention that comes from these you know public displays. And so, we have to think through and manage that and we’ll work with people across the chamber about what the appropriate response is. Obviously, I’m in Tasmania at the moment, in the beautiful city of Strahan, and people are raising it with me, about how concerned they were about the behaviour and that’s been a theme since it happened, really, with a lot of people –

KARVELAS: So, you’re saying the public?

GALLAGHER: Yeah. People are really shocked and upset by that display of behaviour and see it as incredibly disrespectful. So, you know, we’ll work through that with other members of the Senate when the Senate sits. That’ll be the appropriate time.

KARVELAS: The Opposition’s Simon Birmingham says new measures are required that go beyond censuring senators who behave like this in the future. Is that something you think you should explore? Penalties for disorderly behaviour?

GALLAGHER: Well, there are standing orders, obviously, in place at the moment. I haven’t spoken to Simon about this. So, that’s kind of what I’m saying – we would have, normally, as the Senate comes back to meet, we would have these discussions with all representatives across the Senate about what is the appropriate response. I haven’t spoken to him yet. There are standing orders and there are powers available to the Senate to deal with disorderly conduct. So, we need to work through that. But I think really for Senator Thorpe – many in the chamber understand the points she’s trying to make but disagree with the way she chooses to make them. It’s really a matter for her now, as well, to reflect on her role as a Senator and how she wishes to play that role in what’s an important institution, including for the causes that she seeks to represent. So, there’s an element of responsibility that she needs to consider, I think, as well.

KARVELAS: Are there any constitutional questions here? They’ve been raised about the way she made that – she swore her allegiance, she says, to “hairs” like on your head, not heirs. Is that a question? She said that yesterday. Does that raise any constitutional questions? Is the government seeking advice?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think there’s – I’m not a constitutional lawyer, but I know there’s plenty of them around. And –

KARVELAS: Do you know if the government’s seeking advice?

GALLAGHER: Look, I’m not – sorry, I’ve been on the road this week. So, I haven’t had discussions. And I only saw her comment about “hairs” last night. So, I’m not sure. But I’m sure there would be plenty of constitutional lawyers who will have a view about this. But again, I think those – everything about this incident really needs to be resolved and considered in the lead up to when we sit again as a chamber.

KARVELAS: But what I’m hearing from you is that because the public has raised it with you, you do think there needs to be some sort of, I don’t know, penalty or consequence or message?

GALLAGHER: Look – and again, I would imagine you’re getting this from many of your listeners – people have been aware of what she’s done. We see this quite regularly in the chamber. So, for people who work with Senator Thorpe, obviously members across the chamber have views that this needs to be responded to and we will work with everybody across the Senate about how we deal with it. But you know, it’s cut through and again, I would say to Senator Thorpe, she’s a senator in an important democratic institution in our country and really, I mean there is an element here where she has the opportunity to reflect on how she plays that role.

KARVELAS: Thank you so much for joining us.

GALLAGHER: Thanks, PK.