Senator the Hon Katy Gallagher

MICHAEL ROWLAND, HOST: Okay, let’s return to our top story this morning, the federal government’s plan to cap international student numbers from next year. Drawing strong reaction already. For the government’s response, let’s bring in the Finance Minister, Katy Gallagher. Minister, very good morning to you.

SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER, MINISTER FOR FINANCE: Good morning.

ROWLAND: So, criticisms from mainly the big universities – it has to be said – include lines like, this plan is ill-conceived, it’s scandalous, it’ll hurt the wider economy. Has the government thought this one through?

GALLAGHER: Yes, we have thought it through very carefully, and the reforms that Jason Clare has been leading really are about strengthening the integrity and sustainability of the international education system here. So, we think the national planning level of 270,000 students for 2025 is the appropriate number. It certainly allows universities to continue to have large numbers of international students but also, ensures sustainability, integrity, is applied to the higher education system.

ROWLAND: We had one of the International Student Association representatives here in the studio earlier, Minister. He reckons this will hurt Australia’s reputation internationally, certainly in the region when it comes to education. What do you say to that criticism?

GALLAGHER: Well, I don’t think it should. I mean, these numbers – it really takes it back to the pre-pandemic level. There would be large populations of international students welcomed in this country across universities and vocational education and training. So, I don’t think that’s the case at all. They’re an important part of our education system and an important part of our economy as well. And part of the reason we’ve taken these steps is to ensure that we are you know maintaining that important role, but also ensuring that it’s sustainable and that we maintain the social license around international education as well.

ROWLAND: When you say social license, what do you mean by that?

GALLAGHER: Well, you know, I think there has been – with the large numbers of students that we’ve seen arriving into Australia has, you know, I think particularly post-pandemic – you know, I think placed pressure on certainly our migration planning levels, but also on universities as well. And you know, I think having this number provides certainty to the universities and ensures that they are able to plan and meet the responsibilities they have, but also ensures that all universities get a fair share. So, some of those regional universities as well. And I think that will allow a better outcome for everybody. So, it keeps this important role of international education but allows us to sort of more sustainable planning and certainty going forward.

ROWLAND: You mentioned migration. Universities Australia, one of the peak bodies, says they believe international education is unfairly bearing the brunt of the government’s move to tackle migration more generally.

GALLAGHER: Well, again, I don’t think that’s the case. A lot of work has been done, particularly by Jason Clare and his department, to look at what is a reasonable level of international students coming and learning in our country. We’ve settled on this number, which is 270,000 students. That allows universities to have large populations of international students. So, again, the work that’s been done across the migration system is looking at you know every aspect of it – the reforms that Clare O’Neil brought in when she was minister. But this is a very sensible response to some of the pressures we’ve been seeing, but also ensuring that universities have that certainty for planning going forward.

ROWLAND: Okay. I want to switch to those big CFMEU – and other union members – rallying on the streets of Australian cities yesterday. The CFMEU, of course, into administration, serious allegations against some of its former leaders. But we had lots of unionists – not just with the CFMEU, Minister – expressing their anger, their visceral anger at the government over what’s been done here, vowing to take up their concerns at the next election. Are you worried there’ll be blowback at the ballot box from Australia’s union movement?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think the government had to respond, Michael, to the allegations – serious allegations – that were uncovered and published in the media. We had no option but to respond and the response has been to put in an administrator to clean up that union, the CFMEU. But everyone has a right to protest in this country. I can understand that members of that union will be feeling confronted and upset by what’s happened. Unions are a force for good in this country, I strongly believe that, but the government had to respond. I mean, there was no option, and we’ve done that through very strong legislation. Whether people protest about that is a matter for them, really. We’ve responded in a way that will ensure the ongoing impact – organisational impact for the CFMEU. So, we want that union to continue, we want it to represent its members, but there’s a long way to go and the administrator’s got a big job ahead of him.

ROWLAND: One of those protesting was Greens MP Max Chandler-Mather, who was up on stage at the Brisbane rally, accusing the government of attacking not just the CFMEU, but every Australian worker, with this move. What do you say to that criticism?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think that Greens MP has to explain for himself why he thought it was appropriate to really associate himself with serious allegations of violence, intimidation and misogyny. We know that that Greens MP loves to grandstand. He’s never come across a stage he doesn’t want to jump up on and scream from. But you know, really, leaders from our Parliament who understand the allegations that have been raised, who understand the debates that we’ve had in this chamber – I think he needs to explain why he did think that was appropriate yesterday.

ROWLAND: Finance Minister Katy Gallagher, appreciate your time.

GALLAGHER: Thank you.