Senator the Hon Mathias Cormann

LAURA JAYES: Let’s go live to Canberra now. Leader of the Government in the Senate Mathias Cormann joins me. Thank you so much for your time.

MATHIAS CORMANN: Good morning.

LAURA JAYES: When will all refugees be transferred off Manus and Nauru to the US, New Zealand or elsewhere?

MATHIAS CORMANN: Updates on the progress of our resettlement arrangements are a matter for the Minister for Home Affairs, Peter Dutton. He provided an update again yesterday during his press conference with the Prime Minister about how our resettlement arrangements with the United States are progressing. Those resettlement arrangements with the US are well understood. They have been very successful, except that they were being undermined in more recent times by Labor’s medivac laws which had a very bad effect all round.

LAURA JAYES: A firmer date, is that part of the secret deal you did with Jacqui Lambie?

MATHIAS CORMANN: There is no secret deal. We have been engaging constructively and in good faith with Senator Lambie for some time. We provided very detailed briefings on our border protection policies, on our resettlement arrangements. We provided classified briefings. At the end of all of this, clearly, she was satisfied that the repeal of the medivac laws was warranted and appropriate and she was also satisfied with the direction the Government was heading when it comes to protecting our borders and when it comes to progressing resettlement arrangements in relation to Nauru and Manus Island.

LAURA JAYES: If there is no deal, why was a letter of assurance required from the Prime Minister?

MATHIAS CORMANN: You are making all sorts of assertions. Let me just say … interrupted

LAURA JAYES: There was a letter, was there not?

MATHIAS CORMANN: We have provided detailed information. What form that information took, that is quite irrelevant to the core question that you are asking, whether or not there was a deal. There was no agreement to change policy in relation to anything. We have not agreed to change policy on border protection or on resettlement arrangements or on anything else in return for a vote in favour of our medivac repeal bill. As we have said as a matter of public record for some time, we did provide extensive information and extensive reassurance around the policy agenda that the Government is pursuing in this space when it comes to protecting our borders and when it comes to pursuing resettlement arrangements. That is entirely appropriate. That is not unusual incidentally.

LAURA JAYES: The problem is, Minister, Jacqui Lambie said in the Chamber yesterday, and I quote, “I put a proposal to the Government to work with me to secure my support for the passage of the repeal of medivac”, end quote. That sounds like a deal.

MATHIAS CORMANN: No it does not actually. Of course she has been putting things to us. In return we provided information about what we were already doing. We provided information about our policies in some detail. We provided classified briefings, including classified briefings from the Commander of our Operation Sovereign Borders in relation to all relevant aspects. At the end of those briefings, at the end of providing all of that information about our existing policies, the policies that we are committed to continuing to pursue. As the Prime Minister said very clearly yesterday, the only undertaking that we gave is that we would continue to implement our policies when it comes to border protection and resettlement arrangements. That is all there is to it.

LAURA JAYES: Okay, so if it’s already stated policy and you’re not changing any of your policies around this particular legislation, why can’t you say so? How would it be a breach of national security?

MATHIAS CORMANN: Hang on, I have told you precisely what we have done. We are continuing to implement our policies on border protection and on resettlement arrangements unchanged. But Senator Lambie was provided classified briefings …interrupted

LAURA JAYES: Minister, she said she put the proposal to the Government though, so Jacqui Lambie either thinks she has got a deal, you’re either dudding her or you’re using very clever sophistry.

MATHIAS CORMANN: No, I completely reject that proposition. We have been engaging with Senator Lambie in good faith, openly and transparently. But classified briefings are that, classified briefings. They are not things you dissect in the national media. That is the whole purpose. We are focused on protecting our national security. It might well be that you think that we should reveal everything and anything at the top secret level and undermine our national security. That might be your preference, but that is not something that a responsible government would do. We are very appreciative of the fact that Senator Lambie has respected the classified nature of the detailed briefings that she has obtained.

LAURA JAYES: How can we believe you, Senator, when a couple of months ago the Coalition passed its tax cuts with the help of Jacqui Lambie. At that time you said no deals, no horse trading, and then a couple of months later the Government, apropos of nothing forgives a $150 million housing debt for Tasmania.

MATHIAS CORMANN: I think that you are misrepresenting what was said at the time. What I said clearly at the time, which was absolutely the truth, was that we had committed to Senator Lambie to work with her in relation to this issue which she had raised in a very high profile manner in the context of that debate. There was not a direct quid pro quo. Senator Lambie was very clear herself on the public record in the Senate at the time, that she had been persuaded of the merits of the personal income tax cut legislation. We said also publicly at the time that over the subsequent six to eight weeks or thereabouts, I think was what we said at the time, that we would work with her in good faith through that issue. That is what we did. Subsequently, relevant announcements were made.

LAURA JAYES: If this was a union, you’d be calling it a bribe though, wouldn’t you?

MATHIAS CORMANN: I completely disagree. We have just passed the medivac repeal legislation which strengthens our national security, which finally removes a terrible decision that was pushed through by the Labor party and the Greens in the last Parliament. We did so on the basis of continuing to implement our border protection policies unchanged … interrupted

LAURA JAYES: I’m not casting any judgement on the merit or otherwise of medivac…

MATHIAS CORMANN: Yes you are. Yes you are.

LAURA JAYES: No, I’m not. No, I’m not. Is this what we can expect from this Government for the rest of the term? You’re saying the means justifies the ends.

MATHIAS CORMANN: You are entitled to your opinion. What I would say is that as a Government we have a responsibility to the Australian people to progress our agenda through the Parliament. The Government does not have a majority in the Senate and so of course we have to engage with non-Government Senators to achieve a consensus in relation to our agenda. On occasions, that means we have to sit down with crossbench Senators or, with Labor or Greens Senators for that matter, and explore where the opportunities are for policy consensus. That is us doing our job.

LAURA JAYES: Minister, do you accept or do you think this Government has at least a PR problem with appearing to keep things secret when it’s not necessary, blocking information from the public?

MATHIAS CORMANN: I will leave the commentary to you. That is not my view. We are absolutely open and transparent. But we will not be releasing information that would put the safety and security of Australians at risk or that would undermine our strong border protection arrangements or, indeed, the success of our resettlement arrangements into the future. We are acting in the public interest in making sure that we protect classified information … interrupted

LAURA JAYES: Who knows about the arrangements though? You, the Prime Minister, Peter Dutton and that’s it?

MATHIAS CORMANN: What do you mean when you say about the arrangements? The only arrangement there is with Senator Lambie is an undertaking that we will continue to implement our policies unchanged.

LAURA JAYES: I would argue that transparency is a fundamental tenant of democracy. Where do you draw the line?

MATHIAS CORMANN: There are well established processes around the treatment of classified information to protect our national interest, to protect our national security. These are matters that apply under governments of both political persuasions appropriately so. I do not think that any media outlet credibly has challenged the proposition that we need to protect certain classified information in order to protect our national security and to protect our national interest.

LAURA JAYES: Mathias Cormann, appreciate your time this morning.

MATHIAS CORMANN: Always good to talk to you.